Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 All right. We have our next question on Roman Catholicism, and it is, what are the seven sacraments in Roman Catholicism?
Speaker 2 00:00:14 All right, so most Catholics are gonna know these backwards and forwards. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, for our Protestant friends here, this is gonna be you, you know, you're familiar with like three or four, five, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the idea of a sacrament. But a sacrament at the end of the day is gonna be something that is set apart and sacred. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, these are very important. Now, if you have not listened to our previous episode on the Treasury of Merit mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I would highly suggest hit pause, go back and listen to that, because that episode is gonna really lay the foundation of what happens in the sacraments.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 So there are three different categories of sacraments, the sacraments of initiation, the sacraments of healing, and the sacraments of service. So let's start with the sacraments of initiation. What do you got for us?
Speaker 2 00:01:01 All right. Three sacraments of initiation, and it starts with baptism. Baptism is hands down of all the sacraments, the most important, um, baptism, water baptism, what it does, two big things, very essential. Number one, water baptism done by the Roman Catholic Church, uh, they believe removes what is called original sin. Hmm. This is the sin that you are born with. Sure. It's the sin that separates you from God. It's the sin, um, that will damn you to hell unless you're forgiven. And so in water, baptism, original sin is washed away, which is why it's really important for babies, and
Speaker 1 00:01:40 That's why they try to do it as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 00:01:43 As soon as, as soon as possible. And so, number one, it removes original sin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the positive side of it is that it now unites you to Christ. Mm. You are officially in relationship with God. So as a Protestant, um, we do not believe that baptism initiates your relationship with God. Right. Primarily because Jesus and the Apostle Paul and every New Testament author identifies that our relationship with God is initiated by faith in Christ. Right. Or belief not by works, particularly the work of baptism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, baptism is something that you do after you have personally believed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you believe, and then you are baptized
Speaker 1 00:02:26 And publicly profess your faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 00:02:28 Absolutely. And so, one of the reasons why, not all, but so many Protestant denominations don't baptize infants. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is because an infant can't make the decision Sure. To believe in Jesus, and then to enter into that relationship with him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but you have to understand, whatever we talk about from this point on, you don't participate in the other sacraments unless this sacrament has
Speaker 1 00:02:49 Happened. Got it. So, if you are an adult who has converted into Roman Catholicism, you need to go through this before they'll let you participate in any of the
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Others. Absolutely. If you are not baptized, you don't get to do the other things. Interesting. This is foundational 1 0 1. Hmm. All right. So you have the catechism of the Catholic Church in front of you on baptism. Can you read a couple of the sections?
Speaker 1 00:03:08 Yep, I sure can. The forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to a face. Neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will. Yet the grace of baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature.
Speaker 2 00:03:26 Right. So, in summary, when you were baptized, you were completely, totally forgiven. Everything, every sin, you name it, you are the most clean before God that you will ever be then in that moment. But wow, you still have a sin nature. Sure. And that's why baptism kind of hits the reset button. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then there are gonna be other sacraments that you do from this point on to deal with the sin you commit Okay. Throughout the rest of your life. Hmm. There's one more line in here in baptism, and, uh, this is from the Council of Trent, and I think this is super important. Can you read this one? Sure.
Speaker 1 00:04:01 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been
Speaker 2 00:04:06 Reborn. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, and this is an explicit statement. Uh, this is from the Council of Trent in response to Martin Luther mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the Protestants mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, who are saying that salvation is by grace through faith. And one of the questions was, well, what if I believe, but I die before I could be baptized? And the Protestants were saying, well, that's unfortunate, but salvation is by grace through faith, not by works or sacrament or ordinance or whatever you wanna call it. And the Council of Trent said, no, you don't go to heaven. In fact, you are. This is the only way that you can have your sin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your original sin be forgiven. Without this, there's no salvation. So we'll probably spend the most amount of time on this one because it is so foundational. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and essential mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And this is why Protestants will say, well, I thought salvation was by grace through faith, not by works. And the Roman Catholic will come in and say, mm. But you do have to be, you do have to
Speaker 1 00:05:01 Do this also thing. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:05:03 Yeah. Um, and not just that, but then also some, yeah. Some more things. And so
Speaker 1 00:05:08 There's several ingredients. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:09 It, it is, uh, when Aroma Catholic says, we believe salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, um, they're, their doctrine is not consistent with that statement. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, they are a works based and faith-based. You need mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you need sacraments, good works. Right.
Speaker 1 00:05:24 And faith. So faith works, and the sacraments all work together to give you your salvation,
Speaker 2 00:05:29 To give your salvation. All right. The second, uh, sacrament of initiation is the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, after your baptized, you can partake of the Eucharist. Uh, we'll do a future episode probably on transubstantiation. But this idea, um, that the body, or the bread and the wine mm-hmm. <affirmative> are turned literally into the body and blood of Jesus
Speaker 1 00:05:49 Christ. It's not just a symbol, it is a literal transformation. Correct.
Speaker 2 00:05:53 Yes. Um, and it's a trans transformation, if you will, that happens in the spiritual realm, lust the physical realm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the, the elements become holy. Yeah. And then in partaking of them, what you're doing is you're participating with Christ's suffering mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so as you partake of the Eucharist, there is a, we'll call it a reallocation of merit. So this is actually really good for the merit side of things. Uh, it, it's really effective in Roman Catholicism for deeper union with Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative> connection to Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, as you feed on the body and blood of Jesus, you are taking Christ in, you're becoming by proximity, if you will, more holy and righteous. And so one of the, one of the dynamics in Roman Catholicism that is, um, uh, un it's kind of unusual for Protestants is, is that righteousness and intimacy with God is not simply spiritual, but tactile.
Speaker 2 00:06:46 Hmm. So for, for Protestants, intimacy happens with God as we pray. Yeah. Or worship or spend time alone. But for, um, Roman Catholics, the actual physical participation in elements binds us closer. Mm. Interesting. Closer together. Yeah. Um, and so, but it's not just a spiritual thing, it's a, it is an ontological real mm-hmm. <affirmative> thing that happens is you participate in communion, you're objectively the closest to Christ. Hmm. That you could be in those moments. Um, my grandma was a Roman Catholic, and, um, I was young, but she was debating with me about Roman Catholicism and being a Protestant, and she said, I'll never forget this. She kinda slammed her fist on the table. And, um, and I was talking about, grandma, you don't go to heaven by being good. You trust in Christ. And Ephesians two, eight and nine Yeah. Up the book of Romans. And she just, she slams her fist on the table and she says, like this loud pleading voice, but you don't have the Eucharist. Hmm. And
Speaker 1 00:07:45 She so important to them,
Speaker 2 00:07:46 She didn't have the vocabulary. But this, so there's baptism, but then the Eucharist is how you remain intimate, close, near, and proximity. And the physical elements have a profound spiritual impact on you in relationship with
Speaker 1 00:08:01 That's a relational tie through that
Speaker 2 00:08:03 Wow. Is very powerful. So never underestimate how sacred a the Eucharist is, not just cuz of the transubstantiation of the transformation of the elements and the spiritual realm, but, um, but because of what it means to them in their intimacy with God.
Speaker 1 00:08:18 Well, and that knowledge and background will be so helpful for those who are listening who are Protestant Yeah. To handle this gently and be very loving in how you come at it, because this is so near and dear and special. It is to those of your friends who are Roman Catholics,
Speaker 2 00:08:32 Which I tell people, if you're like, engaging a Roman Catholic, insulting them is probably gonna be the, the least effective way to win them, you know?
Speaker 1 00:08:38 Oh, that's so surprising. Yeah. I
Speaker 2 00:08:40 Know, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who, who is transformed by being insulted <laugh>. All right. So the, the last sacrament of initiation, um, com is confirmation and, uh, confirmation, um, usually happens when you're in second grade mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it is accompanied with your first communion mm-hmm. <affirmative> typically mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so confirmation is an initiation into the church. And so what baptism is to God, confirmation is to the church. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so again, typically you'd be baptized as a young baby, and then second grade is about that time you'd go through a class where they would teach you kind of the ins and outs of the sacraments and, um,
Speaker 1 00:09:15 And to go through a service to be confirmed to the
Speaker 2 00:09:17 Church. Oh, yeah. I, I will never forget my, I, I was in second grade. My mom had already left the Catholic church mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I was going to a Catholic school mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so all of the kids in my class mm-hmm. <affirmative>, except for me and one other girl, uh, they all got confirmed and took their first community and everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I sat back and so from second grade all the way to eighth grade mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then throughout high school, cause I was Catholic school the whole time, uh, I would sit while everybody else got up and got communion. And when I was hungry, it made me mad. <laugh>. Anyways, <laugh>, that was, that was a kid.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 Thanks for that. Side note. Gotcha.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Back. Yeah. Um, so the catechism, it says this in 1285, they, the catechism is broken down into numerical section mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so section 1285, can you read that? Sure.
Speaker 1 00:09:56 It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.
Speaker 2 00:10:05 Oh, yeah. So it is dangerous to be baptized and yet not confirmed.
Speaker 1 00:10:09 It's all interwoven. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:10:11 Is all interwoven. Yeah. And, and largely because once you're confirmed, you can now partake a communion or the Eucharist mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the Eucharist is continually keeping you close to God, right. Spiritually mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's really important, I think, sort of the notion is that if you're baptized but not confirmed and partaking you the Eucharist, that your time in purgatory is gonna be exceptionally long. Interesting. And this kind of bypasses, um, a lot of that.
Speaker 1 00:10:33 Yep. So the catechism also says like baptism, which it completes confirmation is only given once for it to imprints on the soul, an indelible spiritual mark, the character, which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his spirit by clothing, him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.
Speaker 2 00:10:56 Yeah. And you can see, um, this almost official public mm-hmm. <affirmative> connection to the church. So like, as a pro, it's super important. So as a Protestant, we say we're gonna believe and be baptized, because the most important part of me is not what local church I go to, it's my affiliation with Christ. Right. And for the Catholic, it's not just affiliation with Christ through baptism is now affiliation with the church. Right. Through confirmation and then ongoing affiliation with Christ through, through
Speaker 1 00:11:22 Communion. Interesting. Yeah. So the next section of sacraments are the sacraments of healing. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:11:28 Two sacraments of healing. Um, one most people are familiar with is penance. This is also, um, it, it's got a few different names, but, um, it's a sacrament of reconciliation or the sacrament of forgiveness mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And at the end of the day, um, priests are authorized in the church under the authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. This really, really upsets Protestants. Yeah. Because in the scriptures we're told that there's only one mediator between God of man, it's Jesus Christ. So Protestants recoil at this idea that we need a middle person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, James says, confess your sins to one another. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it does not mention a priestly class of people. Sure. Hebrews also talks about the priesthood of the saints. That we are all priests in Christ. We are all people with, it's, it's this idea of people have direct access to God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so we all have this. And so again, Protestants kind of recoil at this, but Yeah. In Roman Catholicism, uh, penance or, uh, it's a sacrament where you confess, um, the priest will give you absolution and forgiveness mm-hmm. <affirmative> and will give you things to do to
Speaker 1 00:12:33 Earn that merit.
Speaker 2 00:12:34 Yes. Christ did his part. Now you do mm-hmm. <affirmative> your part, and that's a really important dynamic. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:12:39 So you go to confession, you tell the priest your sins, he absolves you, and then tells you, Hey, in order to get that merit back into your account, these are the things you need to do. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:12:49 The second, um, uh, sacrament of healing is the anointing of the sick. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, most people think of it like if you're on your deathbed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a priest will come in, there's certain prayers, they pray over you, they'll anoint you with oil. And there is a biblical, um, principle here, which is that, um, the scriptures do teach, like anoint with oil for, for the sake of healing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Protestants, I think largely don't do this. Most modern Christians kind of, yeah. Unless you're in the charismatic tradition or some Roman Catholics, you don't see this a lot. But that is a biblical principle. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, one of the things I appreciate about Roman Catholicism is that they do understand that God does use physical things symbolically. I think they imbue power into these physical things in a way the scriptures do not. Um, but the idea of anointing with oil, particularly for somebody who's sick. Yeah. Um, but if you are concerned about a near death experience, they will bring you in and, and, um,
Speaker 1 00:13:39 And they can repeat it if you continue to be ill or you get worse. Yeah. They can come back in and do it again,
Speaker 2 00:13:45 For sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Yeah. Um, 15, 15 it says, uh, if during the same illness, the person's condition becomes more serious as sacrament may be repeated, this is about purification and preparation. Um, this is about, um, like particularly, let's say you're not conscious, okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a priest in your behalf, um, can pray over you and really work on, um, uh, absolving you for giving you before Christ, even if maybe you're not the most conscious mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but it's also an opportunity for Catholics who, um, let's just say they've been really far from God. It's sort of like death kind of makes you reevaluate things. Yeah. And you're like, I need to make myself right with God. Yeah. Otherwise, I'm gonna spend an obscene amount of time in purgatory Yeah. And it's not gonna be good. And so it's kind of, um, um, you know, making the most of these, um, milestone moments, particularly of death. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:14:32 Yeah. All right. The sacraments of service are the last category.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 Yep. Marriage, uh, again, Protestants and Catholics, uh, we get this one, but, uh, I appreciate that they put this on the level of a mm-hmm. <affirmative> of one of the most sacred things that you can do as a human being. This is where Catholics and conservative Protestants should be aligned Yeah. On all things marriage. Um, but they really just highlight its importance. But the, the one that, um, most people don't understand as much is holy orders. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is the seventh and final sacrament. Yep. Uh, if you're not being married to a man or woman, um, this is for men who are gonna go into the priesthood and they're basically marrying themselves to God for the rest of their life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and committing to a life of celibacy and singleness. And so you have to be a baptized man, a ar Roman Catholic. Sure. There's an educational process you have to go through, but holy orders is the single man's way of marrying himself to God, whereas matrimony or marriage is, uh, a man and a woman committing themselves to each other for life or until death to them part, um, I, we have pastors, you know, and, and they, they have priests. Um, I get called Father Michael <laugh> every once in a while. I'm like, not the same <laugh>, uh, I can get married and I have children. Right.
Speaker 1 00:15:39 A little different. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:15:40 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, it is interesting though. Um, it'll be, it'll be striking to see what happens with Roman Catholic priests over the next few years on celibacy and marriage, because there are becoming less and less priests. Yeah. Uh, marriage does have a benefit of protecting particularly men sexually. Yeah. And the scriptures are also pretty clear not to forbid people from, from or to basically require celibacy for holiness. Right. I've always been a little struck that this kind of got through, um, centuries ago as a policy when scripture teaches, basically don't do this kind of thing. Yeah. And the model of mostly apostles was marriage. That was a thing. Jesus wasn't, of course, but Right. Um,
Speaker 1 00:16:17 But just grasping for purity probably in as many places as possible. Yep. And, uh, just trying to make the best decisions that they could at the time. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:16:26 At, at the end of the day, all of these sacraments, they do come back to this principle of merit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that connection to God is through works and behaviors. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that accomplish your salvation and coordination with God. Uh, but they also do set apart some things is really, really important. These are life milestones, so I wouldn't call them sacraments. I like, we have ordinances in the Protestant church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is baptism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like we're pro baptism and communion. We just see them as not things that you do to be safe, but
Speaker 1 00:16:57 Because you're safe. Right. Because yes.
Speaker 2 00:16:58 And that's a big difference.
Speaker 1 00:16:59 Yep. Well, thanks so much for going into all that. My joy.
