Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 All right, we are back in continuing through some questions on Roman Catholicism, and our next one is, do Roman Catholics believe that water baptism saves you?
Speaker 2 00:00:16 Trick question, um, the word <laugh> saves is used by Protestants and Catholics a little bit differently. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if I'm talking to your Protestant and I say, when did you get saved? We look at salvation as a, an instantaneous thing that happens in a moment in time. And, and so we'll say you were justified, forgiven, sealed, saved. All of that happens at the moment that you personally trust in Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a Catholic, um, who is really in tune with Rome's doctrine is not gonna use the word quote saved to kind of Okay. In the same way. So they're gonna look at salvation as both instantaneous and progressive by nature. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:00:57 Interesting.
Speaker 2 00:00:57 Right. So let's talk about baptism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and what I wanna do is I wanna put myself in the shoes of a Roman Catholic. So I'm gonna articulate this from a Roman Catholic perspective. And the, the question is, the answer would be yes. They believe that baptism saves you, and here's what they mean by that. They mean that when you are baptized the waters, what they do is they remove original sin from you. Original sin for the Roman Catholics is the sin that you were born with. Okay? The sin that dams you to hell. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and the sin that separates you from God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when you are baptized, all of that is removed, and the baptized infant or adult is at that moment the most righteous they will ever be. Um, they are reconciled to God and there is no practical sin that stands between them and God, it is kind of the purest moment of their entire life, if you will.
Speaker 1 00:01:54 And they really try to get that done as soon as babies are burner, as close to it as humanly possible to just open that door to having the relationship
Speaker 2 00:02:02 With God. Yeah. So if you're Roman Catholic, you, you wanna make sure that before a baby dies, they are baptized. Now, if the baby does pass away before baptism, there are different avenues that they can mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> partake if the parents are Roman Catholic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but it's, it's really important because what baptism really does is it saves you, now what happens after you're baptized is you still have natural sinful tendencies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so what happens is that you honestly like create more sins that need to be paid for. Hence purgatory enters into this. Sure. Purgatory is where you burn off the, or you work off, if you will, the sins, um, after your baptism, before your death that you did not atone for
Speaker 1 00:02:42 If you haven't gotten enough merits
Speaker 2 00:02:44 Merit, hence yes. If you haven't go back and listen to, um, episode two on, um, the Treasury, treasury of Merit. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So y if you're a Roman Catholic, they do believe it saves you. Um, but remember their, their salvation is sacramental in nature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it begins with baptism, and then you perform sacraments, and then you add to that good works. And if you don't have enough merit or mm-hmm. <affirmative> righteousness, by the time you're dead, then you go to purgatory and you work that off. Gotcha. But at the end of the day, baptism for Roman Catholic saves you Okay. For a Protestant, that is not the case. Yep. For a Protestant and I, I would say that this is the explicit clear teaching of the Bible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Jesus and the apostles salvation is through believing in Christ we believe, and then we are baptized Right. As an outward symbol of our inward faith,
Speaker 1 00:03:37 Which is why you don't see a ton of Protestants having the infant baptisms. There are some denominations that still do that, but you see a lot in the evangelical church or different denominations where it is an older student or an adult who makes that profession.
Speaker 2 00:03:52 Yeah. Like a, a, a protestant church that practices infant baptism will almost always go out of their way to say the baptism doesn't save them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in fact, they begin to redefine this and they start to say things like, baptism doesn't save you, but it brings you within the covenant. And so
Speaker 1 00:04:07 More of like a commitment of the parents we're gonna raise our child in a certain way, maybe like in front of the church, trying to kind of open that dialogue.
Speaker 2 00:04:15 Yeah. Mostly. But then there are some Protestants who, they won't say it saves you, but it will say that there are covenantal blessings and that baptism inaugurates you into the covenant. And just by proximity of the covenant, you have blessings. That, that interesting.
Speaker 1 00:04:30 Yeah. Well, let's jump into what the catechism says. So the Catholic church, um, this is what it says about baptism water. The sy the symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit, it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth, just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water. So the water of baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2 00:04:59 Yep. And you, you could listen to that and, and maybe conclude if nothing else was written by Rome in their catechism, that it's just a symbol. Um, but it, it is not for them, just a symbol. It is a powerful action that creates spiritual realities. And so, um, the next one, this is from, um, section 1213 of the Roman Catholic Catechism. Read, read this one. This is important.
Speaker 1 00:05:23 Uh, holy baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the spirit and the door, which gives access to the other sacraments. Through baptism, we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God. We become members of Christ and are incorporated into the church, big sea church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and made sharers in her mission, quote, baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and the
Speaker 2 00:05:48 Word. Yeah. This is huge. Cuz if it was just a symbol, that would be one thing. But now they say things like, um, baptism is the door which gives access to the other sacraments. It is also the gateway to life of the ho of, of the spirit. Uh, we become members of Christ Incorporated in as church. It's the sacrament of regeneration. Regeneration is a huge word. Mm-hmm. This is a theological term and a biblical term used to describe, um, the soul that goes from life or from death to life. Hmm. Where the soul is dead apart from Christ and has made alive in Christ. Like Protestants will usually refer to that moment as regeneration, justification, salvation. Sure. All those kinda words. It's this instantaneous moment where you are saved. Hmm. Um, but for the Catholics, this instantaneous moment happens when you're baptized whether or not you believe or not.
Speaker 2 00:06:41 Um, and if you're an an infant, you have no capacity, you know, to believe at all. Right. Right. Um, here's one, this is interesting. I'll read this. 1238. The baptism will water is consecrated by prayer. The church asks God through his son, the power of the Holy Spirit may sent upon the water so that those who will be baptiz baptized in it may be born of water and the spirit. And this is where they'll say that when you're baptized in the water, then you're also baptized in the spirit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's how they apply that, that text.
Speaker 1 00:07:10 Interesting. I think that the next one is probably like one of the most, you know, eyebrow raising for me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and it says in section 1257 of the Catholic ca catechism baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for the sacrament. The church does not know of any means other than baptism that assures entry into eternal be attitude.
Speaker 2 00:07:38 Yeah. Unfortunately, I would love for the, for the people who wrote this to sit down with Jesus and he would say that's belief, not baptism. Mm-hmm. And this is where, um, I think the more a Roman Catholic begins to, um, Czech all of Rome's teaching with explicit text of scripture. Hmm. Um, there begins to be this discrepancy. And I think over the last probably 1200 years or so, uh, more and more Catholic doctrines are being put forth by various popes and sins or councils. And these teachings are increasingly, explicitly contradictory to what Jesus says. Um, and that's, it's really challenging to hear, like, here's another one. This is section 1263. By baptism, all sins are forgiven. Hmm. Original sin and all personal sins as well as all punishment for sin. Now, again, um, everything you do after baptism means to be dealt with, but that, but the moment you're baptized, everything up until that point is completely forgiven.
Speaker 2 00:08:40 If you were to like die the moment your baptism was done, you'd go straight to heaven because there'd be nothing to, to pay off. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you'd be your most righteous self in that moment. So this is, this is hard. Um, if you're a Protestant, this is, this is just, it kind of grinds your soul mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because we are ingrained and indoctrinated with this idea that it is by grace you have been saved through faith and not by works. Yeah. And, um, this is a work. Yeah. Uh, this is this, there's this idea that there's something that I can do or can be done to me that infuses salvation and it can even be done apart from my personal belief. Yeah. And for a child or an infant, they have no ability to personally believe, and yet all of the benefits of salvation are conferred onto them. If, if the Roman Catholic view is true, but scripture tells us it's not possible. Yeah. There's no infant ever who is called saved in scripture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, all the household believers. Um, it's actually explicit in the text that they're all of, um, young age. Uh, there are some kids there, but they are of thinking age. Yeah. And that's, that's pretty clear.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 Yeah. Well, thanks for explaining that to
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Us. Yeah. My joy.
