Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 All right, pastor Michael, we're gonna continue on with our questions on Roman Catholicism. And this next one is, why do Catholics believe in transubstantiation? So before you answer that, let's go ahead and define what transubstantiation is.
Speaker 2 00:00:21 In Roman Catholicism, uh, transubstantiation, big word. But during the celebration of the mass, it's a change in the elements, if you will, the, the bread and the wine, uh, where they change in substance but not appearance. So on the appearance on the surface of things, it's still just bread and wine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but what they do is they change into Christ's real presence. Um, the bread becomes his body and the blood becomes his wine. And it's more on like a metaphysical level, if you will. But, so when you are partaking of communion, um, their belief is that even though like what you're actually eating is bread and drinking is wine, um, you are, you're actually consuming the literal body mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the blood of, of Jesus.
Speaker 1 00:01:07 And in Roman Catholicism, they often refer to communion as the Eucharist, which EU is Yeah. Which is one of the sacraments that we have been talking through in this series as well. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:01:16 It comes from a, a word yto, which means to give thanks mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's, uh, even though when they predictive communion, it's often fairly solemn. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the by definition it's supposed to be a solemn celebration, and, uh, in, in it, you're, you are participating and it's, it's sort of the most, um, unified, intimate moment you can have with Christ where he is in you and you consume his literal body and blood mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it sanctifies you. It, it is a time of union with him. And then it's also time of, of, for Roman Catholics corporate union with him mm-hmm. <affirmative> where we all together are partaking of the, of the body and blood. It's foreign to Protestants. Yeah. Because, um, we, we emphasize what Jesus said. He's, when he says, do this in remembrance of me Sure. That the point of doing it is to remember, um, what he did on the cross mm-hmm. <affirmative> for
Speaker 1 00:02:05 Ourselves. And we have the same means we have the bread. Yep. We have the cup, but the actual transubstantiation process Yeah. Is something that's unique to the Roman Catholic belief.
Speaker 2 00:02:15 Yeah. It comes from, um, the gospels. Uh, here's one version. This is Mark 1422. Jesus is celebrating the Last supper, and he says, this is what Mark says. As they were eating, he took bread after blessing it, he broke it, he gave it to them, and he said, take, this is my body. And he took a cup, and when he given things, he gave it to them and they all drank of it. And he said to them, this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for, for many. So the Roman Catholics have read this and, and said, look, he said, it's his body. We take it literally, and Bible interpretation 1 0 1, we take things literally. Right. Right. So this, this is a metaphor, clearly a metaphor. There's no concept in the Passover meal, uh, which is what he's actually celebrating. This is the Jewish Passover meal where they celebrated the Passover of, um, Israel being free mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:03:07 From the Egyptian slavery. And, um, and, and that was a, a metaphor if he was a typer shadow pointing to Jesus, freeing us from arsons Yeah. Our metaphorical Egypt, our literal sins. And so there was nothing in the Passover meal where there was ever any kind of substantive trans substantiation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> change in any of the elements. They were all symbolic. And so when Jesus says this, he is actually, um, very much playing off the tradition of a regular Seder meal where every single element of the meal had a deeply symbol symbolic representative, meaning, um, so when the Roman Catholic church over time, by, by about the 12th century mm-hmm. <affirmative> is when they really identified the word transubstantiation, you see glimpses of, of communion for the first thousand years of the church or the Eucharist, um, being, um, somewhat mystical, if you will. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 Um, but that there's just, I mean, I'm having a hard time interpreting in light of Jesus being in a Seder meal, taking all these metaphorical representative elements and then saying things like this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, oh, this represents my body. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's Yeah. Clearly what's going on here. Yeah. But Roman Catholics don't believe that, and, uh, they believe No. Um, this is literal and there's, he must have, again, Jesus is the king of metaphor, allegory and analogy <laugh>, you know what I mean? Like I, it's just, um, it, to me, this is such a big whiff. Yeah. Um, but I also know that they're not intending to whiff Sure. Um, like No, no. Roman Catholic. It is probably doubting that because for many of them, that's like the only interpretation they've ever heard. Right. In fact, when we have a lot of ex Roman Catholics mm-hmm. <affirmative> at the church, and so when they partake of communion, there's this funny little thing that happens in many which is like, ooh, like this has always been the most sacred part of my week. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:51 It feels casual. It feels Yes. Almost kinda like, are is this Right. Disrespectful
Speaker 2 00:04:57 Even at times. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, even though we celebrate it most every week, we do take a time of reflection and repentance and, um, but there, what we do in Remembrance, nowhere near has the spiritual depth and significance mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the Roman Catholic Church assigns to it. I think the reason we have a difference is system with baptism. Like they, they'll teach that baptism removes original sin, and we're like, no, we're doing this as an outward sign of inward. Right. Reality. Yeah. So Protestants are known for that, that lingo outside, uh, external symbol inward reality. Sure. And Catholics typically take these external symbols and give them unbelievably extra biblical powerful, um, yeah. Power <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:05:37 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's get back to that. Why, so we went into the Bible, we talked about how they could be interpreting what Jesus says as literal mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not literally. Yeah. Good. Did I say that right? You got it. Um, but now let's get into the Roman Catholic catechism itself Yep. As it goes into the, um, actual definitions Yep. Of Transation and what that means. So I'm gonna read, um, section 1376, the Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring because Christ our redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread. It has always been the conviction of the Church of God. And this holy council now declares again that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ, our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change, the Holy Catholic church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation. So it's literally right there in black and white.
Speaker 2 00:06:37 Yeah. The substance,
Speaker 1 00:06:37 This is what happens,
Speaker 2 00:06:38 Is transforming mm-hmm. <affirmative> trans substantiation. Yeah. 14, 13, um, the catechism rights by the consecration, the transubstantiation of the bread and wine of the body of Christ is brought about, and basically the consecration happens by the priest and the mass. And so when he does this, there's the real substantive mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:06:58 <affirmative>, it's a moment in time Yes. That it actually changes over and goes through that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Which is interesting. It's why, um, the, you'll often see the Catholic priest will drink all of the extra wine. It's not cuz he is a lush, it's because it's, it's sacred and
Speaker 1 00:07:12 Its responsibility. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:07:13 Absolutely. Yeah. When I was a kid in Catholic school, um, we would make the bread for communion and we were allowed to eat it before it was consecrated, but after it was consecrated. Very different rules as
Speaker 1 00:07:22 You can Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:07:22 As you can imagine. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:07:23 <affirmative>. Yep. So Catholics believe that by receiving the Eucharist mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they are communing directly with Jesus. Um, they are encouraged to receive the Eucharist on a regular basis as part of that sacramental gospel. Yep. Um, part of their being a part of the church being confirmed into the church. So what exactly happens during holy communion, as they call it in the Roman Catholic church?
Speaker 2 00:07:46 That's tricky. So here's what we, I think we know that we know. Mm-hmm. So if you're talking to like a common, like normal Roman Catholic, um, there's, you're not always aware, maybe like you don't have vocabulary, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, experientially like, I've never been closer, you know, it's important to God, uh, you know, God wants you to do it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it makes you feel more connected to God. And I, I think what they understand is that, um, it's important, it's important for my sanctification, it's important for my relationship with God. It changes me and the process, it's a, um, part of Roman Catholicism. It has this interesting, um, dynamic that, that the participation in physical things changes us even if our heart doesn't, isn't in it. Interesting. So for the Protestant formation theology, if you will, um, for us it's like, no, we do these things and we put our heart into it.
Speaker 2 00:08:37 And consistency and our heart like being all in kind of like begins to change us. For them it's like, um, no baptism for example, it literally saves you, it doesn't matter where your heart is and, and it doesn't, you could be a baby, whatever, like, like this actual physical act does something to you mm-hmm. <affirmative> no matter what, every time period, whether you wanted to or not, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So for the Roman Catholics, the par, the physical participation of communion has, um, um, uh, deepens their relationship with God, deepens their intimacy, transforms them, changes them. It is almost equivalent, this is the best way I could say it, the way Protestants think about engaging the Bible, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, we're like, we're like, you gotta be in the word, you gotta be studying the word, the word changes you the Bible, it's God changes you through it. That's a similar way to how Catholics, um, perceive communion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it is the means, it's the most immediate, effective, regular means of growth. Yeah. And to Catholic's credit, over the last 30 years, they've realized that the Protestants are kind of kicking their butt on the Bible study side. <laugh>. So they've been really doubling down on that. Yeah. So I wanna give them credit mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is elevating an importance personal Bible study.
Speaker 1 00:09:43 Yeah. Well, and as we've talked in other episodes of this, you know, kind of series within q and a, um, the, the merit that you can earn Yeah. Over the course of participating in the Eucharist mm-hmm. <affirmative> going through holy baptism Yeah. All of that type of thing continues to bring people back into that moment. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And drawing that closeness with Christ and thinking to yourself, okay, well if I do this, if I do this, yeah. If I do this, then I'll go to heaven, then I will earn my way Yeah. And be able to get there.
Speaker 2 00:10:12 And that one of the challenging parts of, of the Eucharist is I know that it affects my eternity. I don't know how. Right. You know what I mean? But I just know it's important.
Speaker 1 00:10:20 I know I need to do it right in order to land in the place that I want to Yep. At the end. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:10:26 It definitely makes the whole process better and shorter mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, so maybe that's that perial process. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:10:31 Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, coming back to our original question, you know, why they believe in transubstantiation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, obviously they take the literal, uh, meaning from the Bible, they have it in their catechism, you know, what would you say in response with the pure and simple gospel Mm. In response to this?
Speaker 2 00:10:46 I, I I would just look at somebody and say the Bible explicitly over and over again teaches, uh, salvation is not by sacrament. It does not teach, it does not have a category for a sacramental. Like the sacraments are gonna have this metaphysical change inside mm-hmm. <affirmative> inside of your soul. You know, like Yeah. The Bible just doesn't speak in these terms. Yeah. And I think when we just get to a pure biblical Christianity, um, we, we don't really have permission to go this route. And what we see is that communion, or the Eucharist is actually essentially about remembering and centering our hearts and minds that our salvation is all of Christ. It is from Christ. Um, and, and, and so that, that's actually challenging because when you're a Roman Catholic, you're like, yeah, it's of Christ, but now I gotta do my part. You know?
Speaker 2 00:11:33 Right. It, it kind of breaks the essential oomph and meaning of what communion was intended to be, and then it makes it ultimately about something it's not, and it makes it about the elements and it's like, no, this is about my soul before God remembering what he's done. And so I would pull back and just say, the best thing we could tell a Roman Catholic is that if you get the traditions of the church out of the picture, which are extra biblical teachings mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the magisterium, the papel bishop. Yeah. Um, pro proclamations, and you just look at pure biblical Christianity, the you're not gonna have a lot of space for the Roman Catholic approach, the Eucharist. I think that's actually freeing by the way. Yeah. Because everything you need is in Christ. Yeah. Amen. Um, when you trust in him and he gives you the Holy Spirit and these sacramental things that we do are not required, um, in the same way. And so there's a lot of freedom from like, oh, did I do it? Oh, did I do it? You know, like, oh, I gotta back to community
Speaker 1 00:12:28 Frequently enough. Did I take it right? Did I, you know, go to the right church, the right priest, the right. You know, there's a
Speaker 2 00:12:33 Lot of anxiety mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not all Catholics have it, but enough have it. There's a lot of anxiety around sacraments and wasn't done right. And God, God, like forbid if you're the Roman Catholic who gets baptized in that priest is disqualified. And you have to wonder if you're right. Baptism is disqualified. Right. These are real questions that that happen and, but we, Protestants are able to kind of take all that out and we say it's Christ. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I'm, if I'm baptized by somebody who proves later to not be a Christian, it, it was never the person, it was always Christ. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:01 So, well, thank God for the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. Yeah. Alone over all of our sins. Classic Protestants. I know, right? <laugh>, thanks for going into that. Yeah. My.
