Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Hey welcome the village church, Q and a pastor Michael, here with you. I
Speaker 1 00:00:09 Am in the studio with Vicki Basinger Vicki. We have a pretty loaded question today. And the question is, can Christians have different views on abortion? So let's have a dialogue. What's your initial kind of just response.
Speaker 2 00:00:23 Yeah, I mean, loaded is definitely, uh, the word
Speaker 0 00:00:27 For it. Thanks. Um, but I,
Speaker 2 00:00:29 You know, honestly, my initial response is, you know, morally, no, right. But, uh, in our society today, a lot of people answer politically first when we actually, as Christians are called to process things, you know, biblically first, when it is a biblical issue, which you have alluded to in another one of your sermons, I can't remember the date. Do you remember? Probably 30 of
Speaker 0 00:00:50 Them. Yeah. I had a number of these podcasts. We process issues through the lens of scripture first and not
Speaker 2 00:00:56 Politics. Yeah. Crazy thought. Um, but morally, you know, we're looking at things through God's law, God's eyes God's call in our lives and the answer's no, you know, we're looking at abortion as a very clear issue of, you know, are you murdering and unborn child?
Speaker 1 00:01:11 Yeah. Is it, is it possible that you could, abortion would be seen as killing and not murder? So one of the things we talked about in the 10 commandments is that it says, do not murder, um, killing people in war was sanctioned. So there are legitimate times to take a life of another person. W would you say that there's any circumstance where it might be killing and not murder? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:01:30 A hundred percent. You know, I personally have known people who have walked a very sad path where it is literally choosing the life of the mother or the life of the child where the mother would not survive. If they're in that situation, there are extremes and there always are. And politically people are very quick to point to those. Well, you know, it's hard to make policy on extreme situations and
Speaker 1 00:01:51 It's also hard to take a general moral stance on something where there are 0.01% chances of something happening. And, uh, so by and large though, it's, you know, it's, I think it's fair to say that in scripture life, humanity begins at the moment of conception and that, but the challenge is okay, so can I be a Christian? Like if I died today, Christian, I'd go to, I'd go to heaven. I have the holy spirit in me. Can I be a Christian and have a different view on the humanity? Uh, the, the nature of an embryo or whatever, like made in the image of God. Yeah. Can I have a different view on that? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:02:30 Well, I think that, you know, part of it is, you know, where are you in your spiritual journey with the Lord? Are you, you know, a newer believer and you're still processing through what scripture has to say about a bunch of these things, has God, you know, gotten to you on some of these pieces. And I think that there are definitely places where, you know, you get hit by a bus today and if you are, you know, pro-choice and you think that abortion should be legal in every circumstance, um, I don't believe that, you know, if God hasn't gotten that to you, to you, with that, you would just be struck down.
Speaker 1 00:03:01 It's interesting because there are big issues that Christians like we have to wrestle through. So do you remember, we have not talked about this. So do
Speaker 0 00:03:07 You remember, do you remember, uh, processing
Speaker 1 00:03:10 Through predestination and your views on that and, and how long did it take you to maybe kind
Speaker 0 00:03:15 Of even generally land whether or not
Speaker 1 00:03:17 Anyone ever, ever lands specifically, but like how long did that take you? Right. And so, like, it's interesting because, um, you probably had pastors teach different things on the issue, but like one of the most important things is for you to process through this and own it, and how much more there, all these people who don't know Jesus, they come to know Jesus and they don't know what the Bible says. Right. They don't know what's right. They don't know what's wrong and they're still trying to work through stuff. Like it's not uncommon that I meet a couple, they both will become Christians and they're still sleeping together and they're not married. They don't, they haven't even had that. They didn't even idea that that was not even wrong. You know? So I, I do think what you said is really good, because what you said is like, it depends where they're at in their spiritual journey, if they are newer, um, they may not have gotten to this issue yet. Like how gracious of God to not convict us of everything that is wrong, you have
Speaker 2 00:04:06 To turn the light switch on perfectly on every single issue immediately. Yeah. That doesn't allow the holy spirit to have that amount of work in us. And, um, you know, we've talked a lot about the research behind, you know, pro-choice versus pro-life and what kind of makeup is it, you know, in society today. And, um, you know, we are seeing based on pure research that the more time somebody spends in the scripture, the more time somebody spends in prayer, or I likely they are to be pro. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:04:36 Because of the scriptures from Genesis to revelation are very clear on the dignity of all of humanity. And I think that's really important. So like, if you are informed by the word of God, you will be probably inevitably pro-life. I would have a concern for somebody who would say, they're a Christian, they've studied the word of God. They've left politics out of it. They left liberal and conservative and all that junk out of it. And they just look at the word of God in its context. And they were to conclude that it is admirable, moral, or okay, to take the life of an unborn child under any circumstances, most circumstances, et cetera. I would, I would question a, whether that person had the holy spirit, I'm not trying to judge them. I would just question like, that's a pretty big, clear issue in scripture. The reason it's so unclear for most Christians is because they're not informed by the word of God, right?
Speaker 2 00:05:26 Primarily from a culture lead by the culture. And you know, this is one thing that people literally cast their vote on. You know, this is like the one thing I don't care about. Anything else you stand for? Where are you on abortion? You're going to get my vote, or you're
Speaker 1 00:05:39 Not. I do think if someone's honest and they start opening the scriptures, they start looking through it. They're going to inevitably see that the Bible teaches that the humanity, the dignity of, of an unborn baby from conception to the point of birth, that's hard to get away from. So there, there are three big views on this. So let's just take a moment and kind of go through them. Here's the first one, the first one is that I think this is where you and I would land abortion is almost always murder and is a sin that needs forgiveness. The reason we say almost always is because of the circumstance you just mentioned, which is, it really is the one in a million, but it still is the one in a million where there is a choice between the mother or the baby. And somehow that mother has to make that decision. And it's Christianity and there's no, there's no win there. Right. Other than that, um, the baby didn't choose life. And so like, it is of unbelievable significant value to God and therefore to, it should be to everybody. And, um, and so other than that one circumstance, um, it would be murder that's that would be the position. Now, does that mean that, um, I hate that person. Does
Speaker 0 00:06:50 It mean that we have judgment and condemnation for them? No. No, it doesn't because I've never met somebody
Speaker 1 00:06:55 Who says to themselves, I'm going to go murder someone. And that is just not in their brain. They actually believe that they're doing probably
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Who believes that they're doing the best thing for either themselves or the child. You know, a lot of people are thinking, I can't bring this child. Their life would be too hard, too horrible. Even if they're processing it through, like what's happening in the world today, there are a lot of people who are truly believing. This is the best decision for this child and my family,
Speaker 1 00:07:21 I think right there. Like I am finding myself every year. I get older.
Speaker 0 00:07:26 I do. There's a factor as well. You have been 23 for 13 years. Um, I forget how old you are anyways, close enough, close enough. But, um, but as I get older, I just, the
Speaker 1 00:07:39 More I get to know people, they are literally doing the best they can. And part of the best they can is the information. They have, the information that they've been told as authoritative or good, good and true. And right. And, and, uh, even though I would love to see this stuff stop. I have a lot, I have a lot less judgmental ism for people who are just honestly like in the thick of all this propaganda and propaganda is really hard to break through.
Speaker 2 00:08:00 Right? Well, I'm going to glom on to one thing you said, which is their authority and our authority as believers is the word of God and what God says. And, um, that is actually indicative in that pew research. I was referencing before the people who view, um, they said religion, but basically, you know, God's word as an authority are three times as likely to be pro life than people who just view culture or common sense, I believe was the other
Speaker 1 00:08:27 Really, because common sense is cultivated by culture.
Speaker 0 00:08:30 I mean, that is like, it's all goes bad. I always say you're
Speaker 1 00:08:32 Either formed by culture or the word, take your pick. There's like, everything else is a masquerading as one or the other. So, um, there's another view on this. So one is it's, it is almost always murder and it's a sin that needs her giving us, um, the other is that we don't know yet would so many people take this position diagnostic on the issue. And then there's a, uh, an illustration that I think is really, I think, valuable. Okay. So if I, if I see you and you say I'm pregnant, I don't know if it's a human or not. Yeah. All right. If you knew going into your car is a 50 50 chance your children would die. Would you get into that car? No, you would never do it. Yeah. Um, and, and it's interesting that we play these odds with abortion because almost everybody who says, I don't know, um, they advocate for abortion. I don't get that. Like if you don't know, especially when it pertains the life of a potential human being, we take the path of caution. I w I that's one, I, I feel like what's happening. There is their insides. Their heart knows it's wrong. Um, like deep down inside and their head is like, I must conform with culture or
Speaker 2 00:09:40 It's self preservation, you know, whatever it is that you're high value at that time, you know, that's,
Speaker 1 00:09:44 Uh, yeah. To say, I don't know. And to advocate that I struggle. All right, here's the last one, abortion, isn't a sin. And it's interesting for in the Christian community, this is held primarily by liberal or progressive Christians. And, um, it's very interesting because if you find yourself in a mainline Protestant, Protestant denomination, almost always not say 95% of the time. Um, that's an emotional guess. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:10:07 Yeah. He almost always feels about it. It feels right. It feels right. Is how we do all metrics here. Um, but, uh,
Speaker 1 00:10:14 They are going to trend fairly progressive and liberal on these issues. And they're going to advocate and champion in the name of, I would say compassion. That's how they view it, for sure. Um, like again, I've never met a progressive Christian. Who's like, I'm going to go harm
Speaker 0 00:10:27 A baby. That's not in their brain. Um, but
Speaker 1 00:10:30 In the name of, of compassion, they are really like trying to help mothers or help children, even their compassion. Uh, I think it's an interesting logic. They'll say, um, this baby would not want to be born with a mother who doesn't want it. So the compassionate thing is to end its life now, which is again, I mean, I think we've made our view clear on this, but it's kind of backwards logic to me. Um, there, there are compassion or, um, I'm sorry. Legal arguments like, um, um, because the law doesn't define personhood a certain way. It's almost like because the law says it, then it is true. A baby is not a person until it's born. A baby is not a person till a certain developmental
Speaker 0 00:11:07 Age. Every state is different. We're yeah. There's even the view of stewardship
Speaker 1 00:11:13 That because of overpopulation, you'll hear this a lot of progressive liberal churches. It's actually our duty to not have children or to only have one children, global warming
Speaker 2 00:11:22 And global population. Yep. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:11:24 There's a lot here. There's one text I'm going to close on. I think this is valuable. It's an Exodus chapter 21, and it's in old covenant law and God had just give him the 10 commandments and he's kind of expounding on these. And, uh, there's a question about the humanity of a preborn baby. Yeah. So here's what the law says. If people are fighting and they hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury. The offender must be, find whatever the woman's husband and the court allow. So like already the baby's valuable if the baby's injured or the mother's injured, then you gotta pay. But here's what it says next. But if there's a serious injury, you are to take life for life. This is the unborn baby. I fry tooth for tooth hand, for hand foot, for foot burn, burn, burn, burn wound for wound bruise for bruise. And here's what you see. God's law gives full human legal rights to the unborn baby period. And so we see God's inherent value and then the rest of scripture just unpacks this principle. So, okay. So Vicky, um, I think the next question that we're going to ask is really important. Um, tell our viewers.
Speaker 2 00:12:27 Yeah, definitely. So our next question that we're going to ask is if I've had an abortion, can I be forgiven? So we'd love for you to join us next time.
